Midlife Mayhem: Embracing the Chaos of Perimenopause & Beyond

Hi, welcome to Big Sexy Chat. I'm Crystal, I'm Murph. We're just two rad fatties sitting around chewing the fat Twice a month. We'll be chatting about current events hot topics sex, sex toys, about politics, about community, cannabis, cvd, you name it. We're going to talk about it. We are very excited to have you a part of our community. Welcome and enjoy. Hey there, welcome back to Big Sexy Chat. My name is Crystal and I have my lovely hostess here with me too. Hi, it's Murph, hi, murph. Hi. We're very excited. We have a really special guest today and we're going to talk all about the study subject paramanipause, menopause and how it works in our brains, at least for those of us who are born with ovaries Almost 56, I can tell you it's quite a journey. So I'm really excited to talk about this. Welcome, carolyn.

Thank you so much for having me here.

My big sexy ladies.

It's so nice to be here.

Very glad to have you Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, what your qualifications are and all that kind of stuff.

Sure, so, just like Murph, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've been providing therapy for probably the past 13 years. I think I was saying 11 years for the longest time. I think I'm upgrading myself to 13 years now. So I primarily see individual clients. I have both a small private practice and I also work for a wonderful company where I get to provide EAP services, and so that's primarily what I've done for the past 13 years as I've been kind of heading into well, I'm far into, I'm 46. So, as I've been heading into the paramanipause kind of journey, something that's really kind of come to mind is sort of the lack of information. I've been trying to sort of discover more and more about this. There's definitely like influencers out there. There's a couple of really fantastic you know female doctors and that sort of thing. But just in terms of like the people that surround me in my life, kind of knowing about menopause or perimenopause, what that is, what it looks like, I just found that that was such an area where people didn't really know and, as we all know, it's women A lot of times. Issues that affect just us aren't necessarily quite as studied or quite, as you know, kind of researched, or, you know, we don't have quite as much information about it. So that kind of drawn me into specifically kind of doing coaching, work around that with women who are going through either perimenopause or menopause, and so that is kind of what brings me here. It's my own, both my own personal journey and something that I'm trying to kind of get out to as many women as I can. So I know people say it all the time, right, like I don't do this for the money, but I really don't.

Like I'm really just so excited to get to talk with women and kind of let them know that this isn't their fault, you're not failing, you're just going through, you know, a pretty kind of cosmic change when it comes to your body, to your hormone, that sort of thing I was going to interject here that it really pisses me off about how much money has been spent on trying to create drugs to help men have erections and men's heart disease and all those other things related to men, and then they try to extrapolate data about how the sex men to women and it's just such bullshit. I'm over it. It's our turn. Please start studying us, study our libidos, study our sexual response, study our. We have a lot more. We have a lot going on. Man, it's a lot right now.

Right, yeah, it's just literally one of the women that I follow, dr Mary Claire Haver. She literally posted a TikTok this morning. That was kind of that. It was a research study and talking about the fact that we are not just small men or men with different kind of body parts, we are our own thing. And absolutely I was thinking this morning I can't imagine if men from 35 to 55 went through this huge change and not that men don't Men definitely deal with hormone changes as well but if they went through this truly cataclysmic but that was the word that she was in, it really stuck with me this cataclysmic body change, we would have so much information about it. I went to my doctor in probably my mid 30s and I said I'm noticing some stuff going on with me. I think maybe I'm in the I think it's called perimenopause and her response to me was like yep, you're over 35. So you are. And that was our entire conversation. I think I've been prescribed antidepressants to kind of deal with that symptoms that I'm experiencing. But my goodness, that's really it. So absolutely I think it boggles my mind that we don't have more information, that we as women don't have more training, information and kind of preparedness for this and, like I said, I lost my mother very young. I lost my mom around kind of my mid 30s. I know that she went through menopause but we never really talked about it. I was young I thought menopause was something that happened when you were old, so we never really talked about it and so I've just kind of been in the dark and our medical system hasn't been super helpful.

I guess is how I would say it Very sorry about your mom. I know nobody's ever ready to lose their mom, but also I want to just say that sort of trope that goes around a lot about if men were the ones that were having babies, you'd be able to get an abortion on every fucking corner, every 711, every safe way, every Walgreens. It'll be everywhere.

Yep, and you can just see it. When you see, like, the videos of guys that don't know anything about menstruation, you know, and where do you put this thing? And it's a tampon. You know, it's like, come on guys like, so you take that and you extrapolate that onto like, okay, they were the ones like making the medical system and building all of that and then not studying women. And yeah, it's such a, it's such a shit show. I wanted to share that. You know, I recently went to my GYN in regards to periament and pausal symptoms and struggling with this process. As an quote unquote elder millennial, you know, I'm 41 years old, and so I just felt like I'm going crazy. I don't understand what's happening. I'm having all these types of symptoms that are just, you know, akin to what I felt was like I'm not me, I'm not in my body, and my GYN said something interesting to me. She said it's not uncommon for, you know, individuals to feel this way, but also it's like puberty your body's going through a whole nother stage and it's something where you're completely out of control of what's happening to you, and so you're trying to make these accommodations in a way that you've never experienced before. And so how do you do that without having that information? And then she spoke to exactly what you said. We, the medical field, has let us down, like nobody has studied this in the way that they should have. And so it's wild to me to think of like, okay, when I was young, young, quote, unquote, right, thinking of like you, like you said, and that's what, that's what happens to you when you're old, and it really isn't. And so trying to wrap my brain around like what is happening to me in my late 30s and early 40s, and this isn't, you know, how can this be common? And it was just kind of like, well, yeah, that's what it is. Sorry, here's a couple of different things that you can try, but I'm curious what, what was the thing that really kind of got you into addressing this and wanting to provide coaching?

I think you know, for me, I was really fortunate in meeting my husband, my, like I said, I went through a divorce, kind of in my early 30s. I met my husband and we began dating where we're now married. I was really fortunate that he is not someone who cosigns on my bullshit, so he has reflected back to me, like you know. It seems like there's some anxiety stuff going on. It seems like there's some changes going on for you and I think, as a woman like I'm, and I think for most of us as Americans, we're kind of taught that like, just keep going, like just keep plowing through. I can't tell you how many clients I see in my therapy practice who, all the way through COVID, you know, would show up into therapy and be like I don't, you know, I don't know what's wrong with me, I'm feeling depressed. It's like, oh, we're in the middle of a global pandemic, guys. But we all were just like, just keep going to work, keep doing your thing. And I think it's the same thing for menopause that we just are kind of told just like, keep plowing ahead, Like this is just what it is to be a woman, you know, to go through 20 years of changing symptoms and things that really are quite impactful. So I really began to kind of pay attention to that and I think for me the things that I noticed most were the mood symptoms and as a therapist there's a lot of kind of guilt and shame in the fact that I couldn't. I didn't feel like I could completely manage those things. I was having these kind of anger and depression outbursts around my period. I'd never really experienced PMS before. I'd been on the pill with my previous husband. Don't need to be on the pill now, and so I don't have kind of that, the regulation of that. But I never. I just never had really had PMS symptoms. In all of the sudden we would have these giant blowout fights and then two days later my period would show up and I would have to, you know, kind of go back and say, hey, yeah, remember that thing that we talked about two days ago. While my periods here I feel totally better, you know things are okay and I feel really grateful that my husband's kind of rode the wave with me because you know, and I'm one of the lucky ones my period is actually I'm like a 25 day cycle, so I get it like I get it all the time. And so that for me, like I had never experienced that before, and it's possible that I that I have PMDD, or premenstrual dysphoric disorder, which is very intense kind of all of those PMS symptoms, but really intense, Like to the point of, you know, thoughts about suicide or self harm that I never, you know, would have had otherwise. And again, like as a therapist, there was a lot of shame in that of like you know what is wrong with me. And so I've seen naturopaths, I've seen doctors, I've seen holistic practitioners, I've talked to Ayurvedic, you know folks, I've kind of talked to everyone about it and sometimes, you know, I definitely am in a place where I am much more able to kind of manage my symptoms. I literally kind of, you know, let my husband know like, hey, like here's when my, my period's coming. We know, you know, a couple of days before that it's just, it's hard because I don't know about any for any of you guys, but for me all of that feels, you know, quote unquote very real. So all those thoughts I'm having, all those feelings that I'm having, feel very real and it feels very kind of dismissive or minimizing to say, well, oh, you're PMSing, Like I think there's a lot of like negativity in that right, Like we've heard that our whole life like oh, you're just PMSing, yeah, and it's a nightmare, you know like. So that is what really makes me ragey and stabby. All the things make me ragey and stabby, and I also want you to take care of me, because I feel really vulnerable and sensitive. But I also want to. Yes, I also want to stab you. My an old therapist that I used to have would say it's really hard to hug a porcupine, and she's right it's hard. If I'm being ragey and stabby. It's hard for my husband to want to hug me and love on me, but I also needed at that moment. So that's kind of what brought me into the space and for me, I think, what has really made the shift and I this might be disappointing for folks I don't have the magic answer of, like how to make all this stuff go away, but what really I think is making the shift is not viewing my body and these things as a problem to solve at the failure that I'm having, but instead, you know, like you said, merb, like something that I need to kind of adapt to, like this is what my body is right now and man, my body is an amazing thing and I really have to adapt to this and treat my body differently.

I remember going to my therapist and then like, look, what is this? Is it PTSD? Is it grief? Is it the pandemic? Is it Trump? Is all the profound loss I've had in my life? Is it depression? She's like, yes, yes, Intrusive thoughts. Yes, Crystal, I read a book. I went how long was this last she goes? What could last up a decade. I went shut the front door. Nobody told me I didn't know it was going to last 10 years or more for some people. But it was like, yeah, all those things, Crystal, You're probably still on all those things all at the same time.

Yeah, and I said to my G-Wagon I'm kind of concerned because I'm going from zero to murder, and she was just like oh, yeah, yeah, you know, that's actually really common. But what I was most surprised about with the mood was just the drop of sex drive. For me it happened so quickly that and I've always been a high sex drive person I've always really felt like that was kind of my core identity and so having that kind of stripped away impacted me in a mental health way that I wasn't prepared for. And talking to my G-Wagon, she was just like I know, and she's like I'm in it right now too, and she goes. The best thing I can tell you is to start scheduling that stuff and to really like, when you feel like it, like it has to happen, it can't be like one of those things where you're like, well, we'll put it off till eight o'clock, like, if you're feeling like, okay, I think I can do this, I think I'm feeling a little bit sexual and maybe want to have some attention, do it right when you feel that way, because when you put it off, she's like it will immediately drop. Yeah, anybody else have that experience? I?

think that that's it's so interesting, because so we've got our three primary hormones are estrogen, testosterone and progesterone. One of the symptoms of low testosterone or low progesterone is low libido. Estrogen dominance also gives us kind of low libido and all of that is changing. Kind of vaginal dryness happens, so maybe having or difficulty even achieving orgasm. So there may just be kind of like a like sex just isn't quite as interesting, or maybe even it's painful, or simply just a drop in libido because our hormones are changing as we're going through perimenopause and menopause and still getting our cycle. So these things are still fluctuating throughout the month. So it's not even just like oh yeah, like I have low testosterone. I know what that feels like, but it's throughout the month that feels differently. I'm telling you, when my period hits, I I physically feel that stuff draining out of me and I become we call it Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. We literally like come back to I think it's Hyde, that's the normal one, right? No, it's Dr Jekyll. Anyway, I literally come back to much more normal. There's a fantastic video on YouTube that compares it to like that's werewolves thing, where that you know absolutely. So, yeah, I think that that's you know, and and, like you said, like if that's something that you've identified with your whole life, it's something that's such a part of your relationship with your husband, and then suddenly like to have low libido or even just to have changes in. You know, national dryness, which maybe you've never had before, can really impact us and, like I said, it just leaves us feeling like what am I doing wrong? What's wrong with me? Why am I feeling?

I can definitely relate to all the things that Murph just said. Especially, I kind of became an apostle like overnight, because on a Tuesday the doctor said do you want to have a? He's directing me on Thursday and I said yes, and then Friday, you know, I was without any ovaries. So definitely things came crashing for me down, but not like Murph. A big part of my life was my sexuality, my sex drive, my desire, my interest all went crashing down for me. But I want to say you know, you think about how much we, how little we all know about it and, like Murph talked about earlier, how men don't even understand about periods. So we think of it having even less information than we have, like way less. And we think I don't think they know most of us don't know how to deal with us. Most of them don't know how to deal with us.

It makes me kind of go back to that thought of like when old white politician males would say like, well, you can't have a woman in there in the office because you know she'd be hysterical. And it's like, okay, well, the age range that they were intending at around then is someone in peri-a-menopause. And honestly I'm like, well, yeah, but you know obviously the, you know who's in there now and all the things that it's terrible, but the whole system needs an overhaul and I think women would be the perfect ones to do that. But it's like, okay, if that's the kind of mindset that everyone already has is like that middle-aged woman is just hysterical and can't get it together, well, maybe if you had done some research as to why that you know is happening, or why you see that with that age group, oh huh, I wonder. Well, maybe it's because peri-menopause.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, even for my husband he kind of approaches it in this way of like, but what is wrong, like what is? And I know that he's not doing that in a way to try to make me feel guilty or make me feel bad that's how he views his own, his own kind of journey with his body. He has a lot of kind of physical things that he deals with that he's been working on in a lot of different ways. But when he asked me, like well, what, you know, if we're treating this with whatever, with a supplement, with hormone replacement therapy, with naturopath, whatever that is, that we're approaching that with, it always feels like to him, like we're treating the symptom and not the cause and it's like there isn't a cause. Like the cause is menopause, like the cause is. This is what our yes, like he, you know, he said to me the other day it can't be that women have been doing this for Eon and it's like this that I was like, yeah, no, it is. It's like women have been dealing with childbirth and cramps and PMS and menopause and all of this stuff for Eon and we've just been doing it. We've just been kind of pushing through and we've been thinking, you know, that we deserve to feel this amount of pain or this amount of, you know, whatever that is. And so I think that that is what I'm. You know, you guys have been such an inspiration and trying to kind of look at my body and not kind of not immediately think about what's wrong with it, you know, because I'm overweight. But instead of looking at my body and really being able to like, celebrate and love on that, I appreciate value, value, all of you. So much for that.

Thank you for that.

And I think yeah, I think that that's what I'm kind of hoping to do with menopause. Right Is that there is nothing wrong with you. What is going on is like we're going through menopause.

It's a natural part of the evolution of your humaneness, like that's what's going to happen. So why is it always still so mysterious and taboo? And I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I'm just going to say that. Oh then I forgot what I was going to say. See, that's menopause. That's what you know, what I tell people, carolyn. Since I became paramedic, I can never remember my words. I have something called word of Asia. I can't remember those words word of Asia but I can't remember the words that I remember. No, I was going to say did you get to listen to our hysterectomy episode at all?

I did. Yeah, absolutely. That was what kind of like made me raise my hand of like, let's talk more about them.

That part where Tigris talks about, you know, losing her diva cup in the bathroom, the toilet bathroom and you know, and then like having blood goes everywhere and she's cleaning it up for like an hour and her friend has to go get her new change of clothing, and then she talks a lot about how sometimes you have such a big blood clots it's like a squid or octopus, like rolling down your leg in the shower and I was like if men had any fucking idea, how can be very disgusting. I'm not disgusted, but it's a lot. It's a lot of stuff. They would have no idea. They have no idea. I know we protect them from that, we stop doing that, but it's so much there's no way.

Yeah, it is. I actually literally I remember vividly I was taking I listened to you guys when I'm out for a walk with my dog and I vividly remember hearing that part of it and feeling like so seen, like I've never had something quite that large, but I think we've all experienced that. You're in the shower or you're dealing with your period, whatever, and I just felt like it was so nice to hear someone else talk about that.

Yeah, I agree that episode was very validating for me, and I am glad we're having this conversation too, because I think there's so many individuals that just don't were so shamed about our bodies and knowing about our bodies, and so I think that's what really helped me when my GYN said this is like puberty, because we as a society think of puberty as like, oh, that's happening to these teenagers, not they're the cause of it, it's just this is happening and they're going through a hard stage, and that sort of kind of led me to think in terms of this menopausal process, as this is happening to me. I'm not there's nothing wrong with me in this process. I'm navigating this like a teenager's navigating puberty, and that was really helpful in me kind of reframing how I looked at it.

Number one I'm going to steal that. I think that that's a great, very validating normalizing. But number two who goes through puberty? Boys and girls, right. Who goes through menopause? It's just us. So I think that that's such an interesting way to kind of frame that, marisha. I love that.

Yeah, I've had a lot with this process of just trying to find little things that increase my understanding or make me feel like, ok, you're not going quote unquote crazy. These are just natural things that are happening, whether it's the waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to go back to sleep that's awful. The feeling of the zero to murder, the loss of sex drive, it's just, it's so much and it feels like it's coming at me from all angles. My husband said to me the other night remember we need to do blah, blah, blah? And I was like, please don't tell me to remember anything Like right now. I hate to say it, but it's like it literally comes in my brain and goes out, unless I have a sticky note next to me that I can write it down on or put notes in my phone, and I've never had that. So it's really navigating a whole new phase of life and I wish there was some sort of guidebook to that.

Murph. Today I was eating some lunch and I got it to go. But I was going to eat a little bit on the front patio and I knew I'd just taken my fork out of the thingy. And then I'm like where did my fork go? And I'm looking all over and listening to stuff and trying to find my fork, which I put it back in the bag. See my left hand. I'm like that. That's never happened to me before. It's before menopause. And it's like I have to be so intentional with everything if I really want to have committed to memory. I can't just go back. No, ok, now I'm going to put my keys here, I'm going to put my nail polish there. Here's the remote control. Always put the remote control in that same spot, otherwise I drive myself nuts looking for crap. I know that our fat bodies and adipose tissue creates estrogen. I believe yes, absolutely. So that brings me to my question, which is is it different for those of us who have a lot more adipose tissue? Because we have that more? I don't know, maybe we have more estrogen. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I mean I think, as I've been building my coaching business, so kind of how I operate, that is a 12-week course, like you said, marif, of like here's let's go over the basics. Let's go over all the basics in terms of how this is affecting your body, how it's affecting your mind, how it's affecting these different things. And it's interesting, even within. It's been a little disappointing that even within this field it is so you know, a lot of the focus, because weight gain is a very natural part of menopause, as you can imagine. A lot of the focus is how do you lose that weight, how do you shed that weight, all of that kind of stuff. We get so lost in that kind of bullshit versus, hey, how do you not stab your husband, like that would be a better thing for me to learn. So I think it gets kind of lost in a shuffle and there isn't in doing the research. I've tried to do the research around that and a lot of this kind of comes back to you. I've seen it in a couple of different places that there is a high risk of bias when it comes to studying fat women going through menopause, that it is hard to tell if the results are because that fat bias, or if the results are kind of normal, but, like you said, so if fat cells produce estrogen. So that's something to know. They do know that the hormone replacement therapy might kind of impact fat bodies a little differently. I know you guys have talked about that kind of how medications impact our. Because our bodies are different sizes, medications impact our bodies differently, so there is kind of that sort of thing. So that's something that I'm really trying to sort of ground myself in is that I'm and I know a lot of folks say this that they want to have healthy. They're here to make sure that you're healthy, but really the underlying thing is I want to make sure you're thin. That means you're healthy. That's truly, truly not what I'm talking about. I really do want my client to feel healthy and happy and that sort of thing, but absolutely I think that our different bodies it's really interesting to think about how our hormones impact these different things that we could be experiencing brain fog because there's that our different hormones estrogen, progesterone and testosterone being the primary, but there's also cortisol, there's insulin. There's all these things being affected and a lot of those things impact blood flow. The research that they did. I know I grew up being told how scary hormone replacement therapy is and there still is a moderate level of research that we should be cautious and that certain folks maybe it's that kind of a higher risk for them. But I always grew up just hearing how scary that was and my mom passed away from dementia. So as I'm experiencing this brain fog, there is a part of me that's going well. Is this dementia sometimes? Is it just normal kind of brain fog? Is this just normal kind of getting older? And so I've been really really hesitant. Someone once said to me I think your mom had that early onset dementia because she was taking hormones and so I've been really kind of afraid of that. But as I'm kind of learning more, the original research the thing that got us all so scared of hormone replacement therapy was done on women who were postmenopausal and yeah, they had already been through that change and it does. It impacts our blood vessels, like I said, because there's that big change in hormones, it literally impacts the way that our body functions. It impacts our brain, the functioning of those things, it impacts blood vessels and so those women were then given estrogen following menopause and they were like throwing clots and having heart problems because they'd already been through that problem, and so there is a lot of things that get impacted by that experience.

For sure, I forget what year it was when that big splash of news came out Like HRT, it's going to cause this and this and that. And I remember several women who I'm very close to who just like, quit their hormones that day. They didn't titrate down, they just stopped taking them because they were worried they're 하 profit back savings Talk about Jacqueline Hyde and I see I saw such a difference in their personalities and everything for like, because they just went cold turkey off of it. And I'm like, are we sure that's the right way to handle this? We don't. We have enough data to know. Just stop taking it tomorrow. Like it was. A big deal was in People Magazine and Reader's Digest and on the news is like HRT. I'm like, okay, y'all that maybe let's go about this a little more. You know, be a little more sensible about this.

Yeah. So I think what we found and again, I'm not a doctor and I'm here to sell any kind of medical treatment, but what the research that I have done for myself, because HRT is something that I've kind of begun to, to explore with my own doctor Is that it's actually preventative, that it actually helps our brain Keep enough of those hormones in order to stay healthy longer, it helps our blood vessels stay healthier longer, and so, like I said, I think that there's definitely some risk factors or some people that it's not the right choice for, but what I, what I've learned for me personally, is that it feels like it's actually kind of preventative. I was really, really hoping it would kind of be this magic bullet. I was really really hoping that I would. I'm doing that the estrogen patch and I was doing another pill To try to kind of avoid my period. But man, my period, my period, strong, it stuck in there. They gave me a pill that was supposed to mean that I started skipping my period, um and so that I wouldn't have this kind of up and down of PMS kind of around that or or PMDB, if that. You know what's going on. My period still showed up, still showed up strong. So I'm currently kind of just sticking with the estrogen, as well as a couple of great supplements that I think have been helpful, that I've heard are helpful for other folks, um, but that it is kind of preventative, that it's. It actually shows a decrease in the risk of Alzheimer's and dementia, a decrease in the risk of you know, a couple of other kind of issues that tend to come up for us, because all of a sudden, boom, we drop these hormones and our body kind of starts cannibalizing itself, kind of start sort of dealing with that in ways that that maybe aren't super healthy for us. So it is, it's definitely a choice that we all have to make. But yeah, I just I remember that so vividly and I just remember being so scared of HRT and just thinking like, nope, no, that is not for me. And that's how I got here, kind of at the end of the line of try everything else, and then you know finally saying, well, let's give this a try.

They need to do all the press On those studies that they did. When they say everybody to stop taking your HRT, because there's a lot of us that need that information. I was not giving up giving an option to take HRT After my hysterectomy because I had a little bit of cancer and they don't like to give it to you Because they don't want. They think the HRT could possibly Make the Cancer spread more easily or more quickly. I don't know the exact data, but now that I'm considered cancer-free I'm thinking about asking about it again. Or I'm pretty sure I have undiagnosed, you know, adhd. I maybe need Adderall or Ritalin or you guys need hormones, but I need something, please. I need have shit to do, man.

That's something that's really kind of bugged me is like I feel like I'm in my prime when it comes to my profession and, you know, being able to To do stuff, and it's like boom, you're hit with this life phase of just like utter nonsense. And I don't know how many other women that I work with right now that are, you know, within five years of my age, that are all just melting down and and it's just like I just want to say like it's normal, it's okay and you know I usually do but at the same time it's just like why can't everyone else around us see that like this is not okay, like we as a whole are experiencing something that's really transitional and and scary and and overwhelming and just all all the things right. And so my thing has been I've kind of started gathering like a toolkit of like asking folks what's your tip, what's something that's working for you, what's the thing that like is adding to it? And I mean I have a whole list of stuff that I think like really helps me specifically, and so when I ask that question, it's usually like well, I'll try that out and see if that's. You know something, I've tried. I've tried to get to sleep at night. I didn't really have success with that, so I was like, okay, well, move it on to the next thing. You know, um, magnesium, that's helping a little bit. So it's just kind of like this, I want it. It's kind of like being a guinea pig, to tell you the truth, um, but finding those, just those little things help. You know, take, I kind of call them micro resiliency Is right. It's not going to solve the thing. It's not the silver bullet, like you were saying, caroline, it's. It's more of just like what, what can I do to kind of get me through the day so I'm not losing my shit? Because I tell you, there's nothing like being in an executive meeting or something like that, and all you're imagining is like the worst possible shit happening in the room and you're the cause of it because somebody said something. You know, and you're just like stabby, stabby, stabby, which is not good, but you know, I think, recognizing that a lot of the same people in the room may have some of those symptoms too, but nobody's talking about it.

Oh, did I mention stabby and cuntie?

Really stabby and cuntie. Oh I mean like little bio murph.

I think, um, your um, micro resiliency tips or whatever would be a great um thing to do, to put in the show notes or, um, even in a blog, because you know, of course we can do all the same than normal. We're not doctors, but this is just anecdotal. But you know you might want to. We know this works for murph and this works for crystal. This might work. Actually it's work for caroline and, who knows, maybe it will work for you if you want to. Here's our ideas.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's how you know we talk about community all the time on this pod. I think that's really it. You know, I've joined a couple of uh perium menopausal groups on facebook to try to just hear, like, what other people are doing. Tiktoks are huge with me, you know. So I'm doing that as well and just trying to To gather that information and try stuff out and honestly, I, I think it's interesting. One of the the things that helps me the most is marijuana. I, you know I can take an edible and my, my, my, I'm going to. You know, murder you drops down to just like just leave me the fuck alone, you know, rather than just feeling like, ah, all the time, I'm like, okay, I can, I can handle this.

I can't do that at work.

You know like it's a fuck. I used to say, uh, married people understand homicide, like how it might happen. You know, I'm not married, but, um, people in long-term relationships can start to understand why Some people become homicidal. It's just like, oh my god, the person you love the most you want to murder the most, and I don't know if that's just me or if that's everybody. Getting a ceiling is everybody. But I hate feeling like that and I don't. I don't want them to feel like I want to, you guys, just like this while I open it. Nice, you know.

I've always I have told my husband over and over again because I've gotten sucked into the true crime world If you want to leave me, just you can leave. You do not have to murder me, um, you know. And vice versa, like I, I promise that I will not murder you, I will just leave, um. But yeah, I think I saw. I think it was Angela Davis. I thought a great um, if she was on like a late night talk show, and I think it might have been jimmy kimmel, and he turned to her and just said yeah. He turned to her and said you know, I don't really know much about this menopause thing and the look on that woman's face.

Can I just say, like she went through, I could hear the words just from her eyes and the faces that she made, like it was so initially, like I'm gonna fucking kill you. To like, are you that dumb? To I'm gonna have to explain this to this white man to, okay, I can, I can calm down, I can handle, like you can see the phases of it.

Yeah, and I thought, just seeing a woman, she just has that, she just carries her, she is just a beautiful, like strong woman and to see, like to, like you said, to see all of that Cross over her face. And then what did she call it where? She called it like just a black hole or something like that, right, and it was just again like just so Validating, and I think I saw you posted online the other day you know I'm having trouble with sleep, I think it might be this perimenopausal thing. All these women responded to you because it was just like oh yeah, like oh, we're talking about this, like yes, and that is definitely again. That's another thing that really drew me that coaching Um in my, in my, you know, work as a therapist. It's very private. You know, I can tell the clients that I'm working with oh yeah, I hear this all the time like trust me, like I deal with this. I hear about it all the time, but it isn't like this community thing, and so that is that's one of the things that really drew me to coaching as well. Um is the opportunity to build that community of women kind of talking with each other about this and actually sharing about this Um and really beginning to do that. But yeah, I think it's definitely something I'm hearing More and more of this like in in big time media, like on late night talk shows. I have no idea how he like I have no idea what came before that, like why he asked this woman about menopause um, and I think I she had a look of like is this a joke?

like you know, her eyes kind of squinted down and like kind of narrowed in, like is this are you kidding? And then like realize, like Okay, I'm really gonna have to do that. But yeah, I I don't know how that came about, but that was one of the most brilliant, just real moments of watching someone go through all the thoughts in their head of like and as somebody who's experiencing this, like I wonder how often I look like that when someone asks me a stupid question, because I I'm just like Wow, like I felt every single one of those Visible cues that she had and that was, like you said, that was so powerful and impactful, because she's such a poised person and so intelligent, and so you know, and I could just be like she's holding her tongue right now before she goes off on.

I have to find this a jimmy kimmel. I have to check out youtube.

Yeah, it's great. Yeah, you guys should. Yeah, you should like to it. So I mean, her face was just Um, but I think it would be. I would love to kind of hear maybe other things more for, or even crystal, like some of the things that you guys have. No-transcript. One of the biggest things for me that I really started to notice in my mid-30s was my relationship with alcohol. I happen to live kind of in the foothills of California, right next to some beautiful wine, you know, region, going wine tasting, spending days out, you know, kind of picnicking with friends. I feel very lucky. That was kind of a big part of my life. I'm a foodie, I love to go wine tasting. You get to talk with the winemakers, you know, kind of in the region that I'm in, and it was just always really wonderful. But then I would notice again, well, my husband would notice that he was catching some shit like the following days that my mood would would really drop like the next two days and I like I kept doing it. I kept, like you know, going out with friends having a couple of glasses of champagne, going out with friends having a few drinks, going wine tasting, and then the next day I would just be like so depressed and I feel very fortunate because as a therapist, I get to practice this stuff all the time, like every day, I get to practice the stuff of being mindful, being aware, and I finally started, you know, a day after I went out drinking. I would notice like okay, I feel sad for no reason, and that's something that I also want to encourage women and men to begin kind of noticing, like am I attaching a story to this physical feeling? I think somatic, which is when we say somatic we mean kind of body specific work I think somatic therapy is kind of going to be the next big thing. I think we've been on this sort of mindful cognitive trip for a long time because it's easy to research, I think it's, and it is really powerful. It definitely, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy is one of our foundations, but I think somatic kind of work is our next kind of big groundswell and I think there's lots of fantastic practitioners out there talking about that but really not trying to connect a story with the physical sensation and really kind of separating out like oh, I had too much caffeine, it's not that I feel anxious, is that my body, the feelings I'm experiencing in my body seem like anxiety. But you know, I had a drink yesterday and today I'm feeling depressed. You know, quote unquote, but really this is just how my you know, my body would just kind of take a hit. So for me, unfortunately or fortunately, I've really had to change my relationship with alcohol. Primarily I'm sober. I just don't really drink anymore because I know I'm going to have to deal with it the next day or two. So for me, sort of changing that relationship with alcohol has been really helpful. I always come back to exercise, nutrition, sleep, social. Those are kind of our foundational emotion regulation skills. And exercise doesn't have to be like this huge, like cardio gym thing. I just take my dogs for a walk, you know, every day I really enjoy that. My husband and I went to, you know, started taking dancing lessons, you know, things like that have been really fun. So for those, for me, those have been kind of the big pieces as well as and you might want to try this it's called a cortisol manager, because typically what's happening as we're sleeping is that our cortisol is spiking. That's what's waking us up at night. So I started taking just a supplement, a cortisol manager, that I buy off Amazon and it's really helped me sleep a lot better through the night. There's still times, you know. I know the week before my period I'm typically a little I feel like I don't sleep at all, I feel like I have insomnia. I know I'm sleeping some, but it doesn't feel like it and even no matter what I do, you know that's still there. But I've really found that for the rest of the time, that cortisol manager has been pretty helpful. But, like you said, it's so hard because it's different for everybody.

No, but I think, you know, that's when we go and we talk about this and have these conversations. Like that post that I made on social media, there were some people in there that were like is this what's happening to me, you know? Because it's just like we're not having these conversations. So I think the more of just sharing like hey, this worked for me or this didn't work, Like it is so impactful to people in a way that I don't think a lot of us realize, so yeah, what if we went back a few steps and just this define what does perimenopause and menopause?

how are they defined? Sure.

So perimenopause occurs between typically starts as early as 35 and as late as like 45. And it's just kind of the beginning of that sort of beginning of those hormone changes. You might notice a change in sort of your period cycle, like I did. You might notice an increase in sort of the intensity of your PMS symptoms, and so a lot of you might notice some weight gain. Your body might not be. You know, a lot of people are like I'm still doing what I used to do, like I'm eating normal, I'm exercising, but all of a sudden I have pen weight gain. All that stuff is because these hormones are changing. Menopause is typically starts as early as 45 or as late as 55 and is a full year of no more than 45. So it's a full year of no period. That's how we really define that. You've been through menopause as a full year without a period and again a variety of symptoms are happening there. That's going to be much more typically where you see things like the typical hot flashes, the night sweat, you know still a lot of like mood swings, brain fog. All of that kind of stuff is also going to accompany us into menopause and, like you said, like this could be a decade right Like and here I was, you know, a relatively very fortunate woman. You know very, you know I've got a master's degree, I've had the support of loving friends and family my entire life. I had no idea that I was in pain and a pause, no idea. So I think it's I'm just so excited to kind of get this word out there to women and, like you said, to men as well like this is if you were, you know, if you have women in your life or people with ovaries in your life who are going, you know who are 35 or older, probably you know and you're saying yourself what's, what's something? Something's happening here. Probably that's what's happening, right, and she doesn't have any control over it. We're all just kind of doing the best we can.

One of the biggest surprises to me was that peremantepause can last 10 years and, honest to God, I usually see like six, between six and eight women on my table a day or moving their hair and I tell them all you know, and if you know this, and they told you that peremantepause can be 10 years, you're like, they're like okay, and I'm also registered to vote, Okay, but these are some things we don't know about that we all need to know. You know it's nobody told me it could be 10 years, a whole fucking decade.

Yeah, and going back to, like the concept of fat liberation for a younger generation, so that they're not doing, you know, diet, culture and all of that same thing. With this, you know, it's like, instead of that idea that we grew up with, with, like menopause happens when you're old which is nonsense because 50 isn't old but we yeah, we have this like hush-hush, don't say anything about it. You know, you go through that when you're old and now it's like we're going to have this whole generation that's going to get to recognize, hey, stuff's happening to me. I'm 37 now and realizing like something's going on. Oh yeah, this is what that is, and hopefully by that time, those individuals have had more research, more things happening in the medical field, because, from what I understand from my GYN is that now that this is starting to become a more prevalent discussion, there's more research being done around it, there's more funding going towards, you know, people finding out more information of how this is impacting women and what it's doing to our bodies, and so my hope is that you know this next, the next couple of generations coming up won't experience what we've had to experience.

That would be lovely. Cheryl, and you asked earlier, like what things that we we start to notice in our own lives. And it was that feeling I'm going crazy, the feeling that I don't really I've never had intrusive thoughts before and like what are all these like to my partner or my best friend? You shut the fuck up. As long as I can think in my head, you know, you fucking shut the fuck up. And they're like these people I love dearly, you know. And then I've always been like a professional sleeper. I would say sleeping is my hobby, you know. Be like sleep four hours, wake up, be up for an hour, maybe go back to sleep for three or four more hours. It really just disturbed my sleeping patterns. I hate that part because I love my sleep so much.

Yeah, I agree, I had the zero to murder, the sleepiness, the sex drive. I also had like some of the weird, like one-off symptoms, like I got really itchy skin and I moisturize pretty regularly, you know, but talking about like the vaginal dryness, like all those things like started to accumulate and it was like okay, like I'm not doing something right, like something's. You know, something's happening here.

Yeah, I mean there's. There's estrogen creams that you can use for your skin specifically because we are deficient in that as we go through menopause. So I've been working with I don't know, is it okay if I if I share I've been working with a company called Midi M-A-D-I and they are just focused on perimenopause and menopause. So I see my doctor online. I'm very fortunate that they happen to accept my insurance, but this is a specialist who is here just to talk with me about these symptoms and it's been. It's been really lovely. The the sessions are because it's online. I don't know what it is about being online. I know my clients feel this too. Whenever they show up like one minute late to a session, they're like I'm so sorry and I'm like that's okay. Like if you showed up to my office a minute late, we'd be like, hey, great job. But for some reason, when it's like an online appointment, I think we feel like we have to be there right on the dot and so my appointments with them are like 15 minutes and it really you know, they really do kind of stick to that. So that's the only downside with that, but generally I think I've probably cried in most of my appointments with them because it's like, oh my God, like you wonder, you hear me, you understand what I'm talking about. You've got some options and primarily, a lot of the options are going to be medical, right, they're going to be medical treatment prescriptions, that sort of thing. But one of the things they've been kind of pushing recently is is some of those kind of estrogen creams for both you know four vaginal dryness. There's specific, you know, estrogen creams for that, as well as like facial creams and that sort of thing, because that itchy skin thing that I forgot about that. One more If it's definitely something that I've experienced too, I think it's something that I've experienced too, or if it's definitely something that I've experienced too, yeah, so it is. There are just like some like weird symptoms, but just like I am someone who identified as codependent, it's something I've worked on most of my life. I absolutely love. There's a fantastic book called Codependent no More and within that book I think she has 12 pages of just bulletless symptoms and different you know, kind of headed by different areas of your life where that might impact you. 12 pages of how codependency can kind of sneakily show up in your life. And I think men and pothos is very similar. This can show up in laugh-from-mouth with sneaky ways. I don't even really identify it with that right, like I'm sitting on the couch and I'm just like, oh, like, please just stop talking, and I still like, even even in this moment, before I like started talking with you, even then I was like what is wrong with you? Like this is your husband, you love him more than anything. But you're right, yeah, like that is yes, that's another kind of mood symptom, it's another kind of blood symptom. So thank you for kind of validating that for me.

I was going to also say something I noticed as soon as I had my ovaries yanked out skin lacks, it's just lacks firmness. Now it just all of a sudden just felt like so different, so loose and jowly, and just like instant, like overnight, it was like from firm to nothing and I was like what? Look at the mirror, what's going on? But I think that's the lack of estrogen, right.

Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, when not when we just have like a hysterectomy, but when we have our ovaries removed, because that's where the estrogen is being produced, you're going to suddenly kind of experience menopause and it's possible that those symptoms might be more severe, because your body hasn't really had the chance to like work up to that. So it's pretty immediate. It can be a little bit more severe, but, yeah, absolutely, like all of a sudden, like we're not getting as much, you know, estrogen produced just suddenly in our body. Even if you have any kind of surgery like a hysterectomy, but you keep your, keep your ovaries, the blood flow is going to change. So you might kind of experience some menopausal symptoms afterwards. It really is. So our bodies are such, such interesting creations and so so a lot of these things do kind of tie together. But again, because we're women and we haven't been studying quite as much, we don't really know as much about how those things tie together. So, absolutely, I think that that makes total sense.

Have you found any? Well, this kind of goes into our final question, so maybe I'll hold off on that, but have you found any? Anything that worked for you in terms of like sexual drive or anything that you kind of hear as the thing that encourages libido?

I think there, you know, like I said, there's hormone replacement therapy. There's lots of supplements out there that are going to help with that, even just simple mood supplements. For me it is like you said. I think it's about learning like what worked best for me. I've told my husband, like do not come for me after like eight or nine o'clock. I used to be like I would say, like bedtime right, like I'm tired, I just want to go to sleep. Bedtime for me is turning into like eight, eight, 30. So I'm like, please don't come for me at like eight or eight, 30, because I will not be interested. And I've always been a very high kind of high sex drive person. I went through some, some trauma with my first husband around that sort of thing, but when my second husband I've got so much trust that I've been able to kind of express that a lot more, and so for me I haven't noticed a ton of change in that. I definitely. I do think maybe the estrogen has been helpful there. I'm, as I said, I'm taking kind of estrogen replacement, bio identical estrogen. I think it's been helpful for me there and kind of building that back up again. But I think, making sure that you're lubricated, right, like if you're avoiding sex because it's painful or because there's these changes and maybe you're embarrassed because of that. Don't be like, just let's get the loop, like let's go. You know, definitely, I think, using sex toys, masturbation, like whatever it is that's going to turn you on. And, like you said, if you are in the mood, like, let your partner know, like the time.

One thing I read and suggested to a lot of women over the years is that some people are visually stimulated. But for a lot of women, if you're reading things that are like sexy or maybe romantic something about reading that slut I mean that in the most loving way it helps make you, it helps improve your libido work because your brain's having to like sort of process it in a different way than if you're watching an adult film, for example. So it's like something about the reading and actually your brain processing the words and imagine what they are can kind of get you going more quickly. So just a little tip for my friends out there and of course we all love the arrows lubricant, this little little lubricant, and, yeah, lubricant. People think, oh, something's wrong with you, I need lubricant. No, there's nothing wrong with you, you're normal. But also, even if you don't need lubricant, adding one, you'll be surprised if you add a good one. It takes your sex from like driving a Hyundai to driving like a Rolls Royce. Even if you don't necessarily quote, unquote, meet it, it still can really enhance things. So just get rid of that idea that you know it's because we're old and we're dried up. No, that's bullshit. Some women never need a lubricant their entire life. Someone need it from the time they're first sexually active. So let's get rid of that stuff. Stupid stuff around lubricants.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, like you said, I think it's just it's so great that we're talking about these things and that we're getting to listen to you guys talk about these things. I was just listening to the sex toy episode that you just really used Fantastic. I can't help but say that there is the part of me that, as I was listening to that, was like I can't believe like we're talking about sex, like we are all talking about sex toys here. Of course you are, of course you are right, but I think for me, like it's just not something that I've been taught to talk about, aside from when I get to spend time talking with people like Merv. And so I think reading absolutely I'm a big fan of like fantasy, science fiction and a lot of kind of the women's sort of version of that tends to have a lot of that in it. I was, I had started reading this really fantastic book and it was about like Nordic culture, which I'd never like, kind of the gods and that sort of thing involved in that, and I never really read anything about that. So I told my husband about it. I was like, hey, I'm like reading this pretty cool book, and he was like oh sure, like oh, give it a try. And I was like we love it if we're both kind of reading the same thing. And I finally got like deep enough into it. I was like three quarters of the way into it and suddenly it was like the smuddiest, like most explicit, like sexual kind of stuff, and I was like, okay, just so you know, like this is going to get pretty, pretty raunchy like pretty quick. But we both read it and loved it and it's a fantastic series. I wish I could remember the name of the series right now. It really really just wonderful, kind of wonderful book and absolutely it's great. I had a doctor recommend that to me years and years and years ago, like read, you know, read romance novels or like that sort of thing, and absolutely I think it's so important for us to remember that different things turn all of us on and so you're going to kind of have to find your way with that.

Yeah that's interesting. I've always really enjoyed reading erotica and or smut. I love that word and I kind of have put that a little bit on the back burner just because, like I read so much during work that I'm just, you know, the idea of reading after is just like, oh, just let me hear it. I don't want to read it. But I wonder if that would work as well, because your brain's still processing and imagining it the way you would if you were reading it. I like that idea. Ooh, I've got something new to try, ladies Wonderful. So, carolyn, you have listened to our pod. You know our pod. We ask every person that comes on our podcast what is their favorite sex toy. But when we went to Fat Con, we realized that that question can be somewhat limiting. So we've kind of expanded that and made it a little bit more inclusive. So I'm going to give you the different scenarios that you can answer of that question. So what would you say is either your favorite sex toy, your favorite sexual aid, or what makes you feel the sexiest?

Like I said, I think I don't know that I even had a sex toy until I was over 40. My husband was like hey, like let's go to this shop. And so I think I have to stick with like the tried and true, the magic wand. I am very, I'm very easy to orgasm, I'm very fortunate in that, and so for me that can be like less than a minute kind of experience. So sometimes it is a little intense, so I kind of have to be thoughtful. So that's like for me. A lot of times sex toys aren't a great kind of option for me because they can't just feel like really intense. But if I'm going to go sex toy it's definitely the magic wand. I like that. Plus, I like that it's a plug-in and I don't have to worry about those dang batteries.

Right, you listened to our last episode, the first of the season. Were any of those interesting to you? Have you ever utilized a sex toy or a pulsating toy like that? I haven't.

And that's what I'm saying. Like, as I was listening guys talk about how intense it was, I was kind of thinking about like how intense like for it really, it really sometimes is just so intense that I that it's too much for me. But yeah, I've always been kind of interested in that. So yeah, I was definitely kind of getting some ideas while I was listening.

Love it. I have that same experience too. It's just sometimes it's too fast, so we have to slow it down and find something that's not quite so intense, and so, like the Atachi magic wand could be one and done, and then I'm like I really want to enjoy that a little bit more. Let me see if I can tease this out a little bit, somehow. You know, absolutely.

So, carolyn, tell us where people can find you, what's your course name, all the, all the things and what are your socials?

all of it Sure. So I've kind of been avoiding, like the socials. I know, you know, so you can find. My website is just my name carolinwoghkinscom. That's where you find my full menopause and kind of all. I've got tons and tons of information blogged on there. So even if you just want information, and my hope is to begin to really build a community, I'm going to be offering I believe it's not quite finalized yet, but I believe I'm going to be offering a course through my parks and rec you know near where I live, which I thought was again like just such a signal of I submitted my application to provide this menopause course through parks and rec and I thought, well, you know, I know they do some like mental well-being kind of stuff, but what are the chances? And they responded right away and we're interested in that. So I think it's such a signal that, like that, we're seeing that women need that. So I'm excited to really begin to build some community there. So I also realized that my, my website is just my name, but my name is built so strangely. So hopefully you can find that in the show notes and I also you can spell it out right now it's good. Sure, so it's K-A-R-E-L-I-N. Wadkin W-A-D as in David K-I-N-S, so both names are spelled more oddly than normal. And my YouTube channel, where I've been just recording short kind of mindfulness practices it kind of began as like a place to kind of record practices for my clients, like things that I knew they needed specifically and didn't really know where they could find is at B-B-E-E-S Mindful 147. And so I'm beginning to kind of load a lot more content onto there that is going to be part of the mindfulness mindful menopause course as well, so hopefully that'll be available too. So those are kind of the two primary places.

Very cool, I, yeah, I hope we can share your course with our listeners and our community. We'll definitely put in show notes if we, and we'll put the note. If you can remember to tell me what the book is called the Nordic Romance Sexy Smuddy Book email it to your or to Marjorie. We'll put it in the show notes as well, because it sounds really good.

It was. It's really I'm like dying. The next, the next book is going to come out in the series and my husband and I are both dying to read it, so, absolutely, I'll send it over to you. Thanks, carolyn.

Absolutely. Yeah well, thank you so much for your time and and really delving into this topic and being vulnerable and sharing your personal side of that. It. It's so impactful to the audience and, as you know, as a therapist, you know we really align with the, the examples and the stories that we hear, so really appreciate that and hopefully we can, you know, get some some topics moving forward where we have these more discussions of how our bodies change and bring you back on and talk about, you know, more of the mental health aspect of that. I think a lot of it of our listeners are really interested in that.

So thank you again yeah. Thank you, carolyn. All right, so you can find us on all the socials. Big sexy chat on all of them Instagram, facebook. What else is there? Tiktok soon is coming, not on Twitter anymore, but to Elon and yeah, anything else we need to mention Arav.

Like, comment, share, subscribe all the things and you can email us if you have questions or you want to share some some comments. We love it If you send us an email at sexy, at big sexy chatcom. And then I think we should talk a little bit about our Facebook group.

Oh, right yeah, Let me call it BSC, bsl, bsl, not DSL BSL.

Yeah, so big sexy listeners, I'll have some community, right Community where you can hang out there and have conversations and have topics of things like what we're talking about right now and talk to other people who are experiencing the same thing or want to share their ideas.

Yeah, Put that in the notes and I'll put it in our next newsletter as well. Thanks, Shal. See you later. Alligator.

After a while, crack a dial.

Toodaloo kangaroo, Okay, kangaroo.